Thursday, March 29, 2007

Are Asians uncreative?

In comments to a recent post, TabooTruth mentioned in passing that E.Asians are uncreative. Seemed like a good topic for a new post.

Briefly put, Im agnostic about the whole E.Asians are not creative jazz. It might be true, then again it might not.

Seeing how I'm not a scientist, I wont attempt to worry about things like Nobel Prizes as proof. Also, Ill give the case only for why they ARE creative. The case against is well known.

Sufficed to say, E.Asians were technologically ahead till about 1700. They had rockets, the printing press and superior engineering well before Europe. Meets my definition of "creative"

Also another point, while they never formalized their knowledge, it was all there. For eg. the principles of economics were all there before Adam Smith, but he is given credit (justly so), because he formalized it into a science. This, seem to me to be a paradox of whites being considered more creative for being more plodding and going in for inelegant structuring and drudgework.

Finally, look at the game world - Street Fighter 2, Super Mario Bros, Legend of Zelda, virtually every RPG - all from Japan or Korea. These revolutionalized gaming and were very creative for their time.

Lets be clear: Im not saying whites are slouches either, to counter the last example - whites created all the FPS (First-Person Shooter) games - amazing stuff indeed, as any fan of John Carmack and idSoftware will readily attest.

The jury is still out as far as Im concerned.


Addendum

Geoffrey Miller (author of "The Mating Mind") has a slightly technical paper on why he thinks E.Asians are creative here.

59 comments:

tommy said...

I never cease to be amazed that Britain, in the course of only a little over a millennium, went from being a backwater of Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire to conquering China, a civilization with several millennia head start on the barbarians of Britain, employing only its navy during the Opium Wars.

One gets the sense that East Asian civilizations are socially and technologically static for very long periods of time without significant outside influence. Take gunpowder, for example. The Chinese discovered it much earlier than Europeans. Yet, shortly after its introduction in the West, Europeans went on to develop the first viable firearms while the Chinese were left pretty much making firecrackers.

TabooTruth said...

My comment was made in passing, and your response was fair. I don't think creative is an accurate term to use.

I merely meant to say that in our CURRENT world, Asian culture has not produced innovation. Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan, have not innovated their way to the top. They have superbly duplicated their way to the top.

From anecdotal experience, I am constantly amazed at the inability of very intelligent asian people to engage in philosophical discussion. I have seen it duplicated in almost any intellectual environment I have ever shared with Asians. Could it be the repressive Chinese government, or fanatically practical family values that value good grades and money over anything else? Possibly.

Yes, historically, they have produced important things, but they were all things of necessity and value, crucial for the civilization to grow and thrive. I don't know whether that will translate into the abstract thinking necessary to prosper in today's world. Sure, as the article said, they have tall buildings, but those are just phallic symbols. Dubai will have the world's tallest building soon.

I don't know, it just seems like Jews and Indian Brahmins top the list on inherent "creativity." Sheer numbers will probably create at least a decent amount of creative Chinese, but due to their low verbal intelligence, not at the rate of whites.

MensaRefugee said...

Wasnt meant as an attack tabootruth.
Just a good topic that you gave me an excuse to write about ;)

TabooTruth said...

I know it wasn't an attack. Your post was a fair response to my comment.

Rebecca Yu said...

Actually, East Asians are arguably the most creative people on Earth.

When you look at the large picture, they predated most Western "discoveries" by hundreds of years.

Robert Temple has compiled just a quick summation of these in his book here: The Genius of China: 3,000 Years of Science, Discovery and Invention

These are largely only technological inventions, tho. In spiritual arts, the Chinese are also light-years ahead of anyone in the West...although only a few Westerners into such subcultures are even fully aware of this yet.

Here's a hint though: Einstein, Bohr, Oppenheimer and other leading physicists were all deeply influenced by Buddhism & Taoism. So, if anything, philosophy is an East Asian strong suit - and the highest masters can actually personally apply and demonstrate it all - not just write wordy academic papers on it.

However, due to geographic and language barriers, it is no wonder that the Western world has only seen glimpses of the most superficial aspects of East Asian culture. Not to mention, East Asia has had a very tough last century. Right now, duplication is simply a lot cheaper. R&D takes time & money - something rising economies lack. But as they regain their footing, you will see them fulfilling their fair potential more and more - on several fronts.

This will include technology & athletics in particular. And also arts & spirituality.

I think a lot of technology is already being innovated by East Asians right now - if you really follow it.

In sports, we have had a recent surge of East Asian superstars in baseball and a trickle in hoops. Liu Xiang also is a world champ in the 110m HURDLES now - otherwise fully-dominated by all Black men!

Most Hollywood hits are now remakes of Asian cinema - including the latest Oscar-winning "The Departed." Who's duplicating who now?

Same goes with Asian spiritual systems. Which make Judeo-Christian systems look like children's fairytales.

So, what have Jews invented lately?

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Anonymous said...

It seems to be a pathological feature of insecure White males to cry out just how East Asians are less creative than Whites when the evidences are far from conclusive. Creativity, like intelligence, is the function of the creative potential you realized; therefore, the result of the interplay between genetics and environment. One factor people seem to forget is the decisional factor in achieving high intelligence. Of course, environment plays a huge role; however, fully realizing your potential is not the sole purpose in life. I suspect many high-potential individuals decide to study in business or law for incentive reasons. I also suspect that brain capacity relative to body size is highly correlated with the presence of intelligence-enhancing factors. I am not saying that all big brained people are intelligent, don't get me wrong. Moreover, stupid people tend to oversimplify the reality; they reduce the reality to something that's convenient for their level of intelligence. If you want to indulge in baseless speculation, here's one: China never colonized the world because devilish materialistic desires were not as fierce among the populace as in the West, which wanted to enjoy surprisingly unsustainable standards of living, and this moral "filth" did not threaten political stability like in the West.

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Equo Ne Credite (Do Not Trust the Horse) said...

I will probably post this reply on my blog (http://thepeskytruth.blogspot.com), since my reply is so long that I have had to break it apart into several posts.

Although this thread has since gone stale, after reading Ms. Yu's post (and visiting her blog, in which she makes appalling anti-White comments), I feel compelled to set the record straight. First of all, yes, Asians are creative; however they are not more creative than White people are. I have heard a great deal regarded the differences in Verbal IQ between Northeast Asians (NEAs) and Whites, but if one wants to rest his case based solely upon Verbal IQ data, then he’s on shaky ground. The fact of the matter is that some studies show that Whites have slightly higher Verbal IQ’s than the NEAs do, but some studies show that NEAs have a slight advantage in Verbal IQ. Given the lack of consistency in the data, it’s probably best to assume that both groups are tied in terms of Verbal IQ.

Creativity is not solely based on one’s Verbal IQ; rather, psychopathology plays a major role in creativity. It is the higher incidence of psychopathology that gives Whites an advantage in creativity (on a side note, after factoring out forms of craziness that are centered around impulsivity, one could make the argument that Whites are the craziest people in the world). The Whites’ advantage over the NEAs in the creativity domain is, quite frankly, self-evident (again, I do think that NEAs are creative people) – just as the NEAs’ advantage in the general intelligence domain is self-evident.

As for Ms. Yu’s arguments, I will address them one-by-one (though I hate to do that, because if you look at her profile picture, she’s clearly a very lovely lady).

“When you look at the large picture, they predated most Western "discoveries" by hundreds of years.”

That’s both true and false. The Chinese did invent many things before the West; however, the West invented some things before the Chinese. So what? We could go tit for tat all day long on that.

Suppose that everything the West “invented,” the Chinese invented first. Why in the world did the Chinese not use their technology to conquer the world? If they were hundreds of years ahead of the West in terms of technology, then the extra distance that they would have had to have traveled in order to “discover” America would have been inconsequential. Even if they were so far ahead of the West, the Chinese did not expand their empire in the same manner that the European nations did. The fact that the European nations expanded their empire with clearly inferior marine technology says that the European people are more adventure-seeking (and less cautious) than the Chinese people are. It’s worth noting that adventure-seeking – a component of novelty-seeking – is directly related to creativity (whereas caution is inversely related to creativity). In that same vein, the 7-repeat allele of the DRD4 gene has been linked to novelty-seeking and creativity, but it’s almost absent in the NEA populations (http://courses.washington.edu/evpsych/Chen%20etal%20-%20DRD4%20&%20migration%20-%20EHB%201999.pdf). The NEAs do, however, have the 2-repeat allele of the DRD4 gene, which is basically something of an intermediate form of the 4-repeat allele (the most common allele of DRD4) and the 7-repeat allele.

Let me just reiterate that I don’t buy into the idea that the West was that far behind China – the preceding paragraph was merely an exercise whereby I was making a point in which I was handicapped by making certain concessions.

Gunpowder is an excellent example of a Chinese invention that the Chinese didn’t have the intuition to perfect (in fact, they discovered it by accident, which is how they discovered many things – they often simply made discoveries, rather than developing underlying theories behind those discoveries). It was the Europeans who invented corning of gunpowder, which made modern-day guns a reliable and practical battlefield technology.

Equo Ne Credite (Do Not Trust the Horse) said...

It’s also worth noting that, depending on how you define the “West,” the NEAs had a population advantage over the West of anywhere from 50% to 100%, so they had a great deal more people than the West had. That being the case, wouldn’t you expect the NEAs to have invented more than they did, relative to the Europeans? They had a huge population advantage!

In order to determine who was more advanced than whom, the best data to observe is probably that of per capita GDP (although the older the data, the less reliable it tends to be). Per Angus Maddison’s data, from the years 1 to around 1500, NEA had a per-capita GDP advantage over the West of about 10% (I used population-weighted averages in order to determine per-capita GDP). After 1500, the West had a per capita GDP advantage over NEA of about 120% (the average advantage from 1500 to the present). Had I used the more traditional definition of the West to include only Western Europe and its offshoots, the per capita GDP advantage would have ceased at about the year 1300, and the West’s per capita GDP advantage would have been about 170%.

Clearly, if one wants to make a determination, based on looking in the rear-view mirror, as to who’s more creative, then answer clearly favors the West.

“Robert Temple has compiled just a quick summation of these in his book here: The Genius of China: 3,000 Years of Science, Discovery and Invention”

Robert Temple didn’t so much compile data as he pulled dated from Needham’s work. Needham, by the way, was in love with China – in part because he fell in love with a Chinese woman – and he had a tendency to see things that weren’t there (as we all do when we’re in love). Needham was also an extreme left-winger, and for those of you who haven’t noticed, the extreme left (I’m not talking about the center-left), has a distinct tendency to attempt to diminish the accomplishments of the West, while giving non-Western civilizations more credit than they deserve. In response to Ms. Yu’s point about Temple’s book, I’d simply ask that you consider the source (I’m talking about Robert Temple, not Ms. Yu).

“These are largely only technological inventions, tho. In spiritual arts, the Chinese are also light-years ahead of anyone in the West...although only a few Westerners into such subcultures are even fully aware of this yet.”

I’m not sure that I agree with that, but that’s really a matter of beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

“Here's a hint though: Einstein, Bohr, Oppenheimer and other leading physicists were all deeply influenced by Buddhism & Taoism. So, if anything, philosophy is an East Asian strong suit - and the highest masters can actually personally apply and demonstrate it all - not just write wordy academic papers on it.”

I don’t know enough about that to comment, so I’ll only say that if it is true that Einstein, Bohr, and Oppenheimer were influenced by Eastern philosophies, then I wouldn’t be surprised that people in West adopted things from other cultures – we’re open-minded people. The link that MENSAREFUGEE posted, in which Geoffrey Miller made the case that NEAs are creative, bears that out. I’m not sure how many of you noticed Miller’s sleight-of-hand (perhaps it was unintentional, in which case it wasn’t sleight-of-hand; rather, it was simply an error on his part), but he compared China’s score on the personality dimension “Openness to Experience,” to America’s score. I have no problem with the manner in which he computed China’s score, but he should not have compared China to the US; rather, he should have compared China to Europe or, even better, Northwestern Europe, because those countries most closely resemble the population makeup of the US at the time that we, as a nation, leapfrogged the rest of the world. The US is only about 2/3 White, so our relatively low score (about the same as China’s) is almost certainly attributed to non-Whites bringing our score lower.

Equo Ne Credite (Do Not Trust the Horse) said...

“However, due to geographic and language barriers, it is no wonder that the Western world has only seen glimpses of the most superficial aspects of East Asian culture. Not to mention, East Asia has had a very tough last century. Right now, duplication is simply a lot cheaper. R&D takes time & money - something rising economies lack. But as they regain their footing, you will see them fulfilling their fair potential more and more - on several fronts.”

“This will include technology & athletics in particular. And also arts & spirituality.”

“I think a lot of technology is already being innovated by East Asians right now - if you really follow it.”

East Asia has had a tough time, until recently, but that is probably due to their collectivism, which is genetic (http://aminotes.tumblr.com/post/777143701/culture-gene-coevolution-of-individualism), and inversely related to creativity. The West would never put up with such a totalitarian regime for such an extended period of time (unless you consider Eastern European nations as a part of the West, but even if that’s the case, our acceptance of totalitarianism wasn’t as prevalent in our history as it was in NEA history).

I think that you’ll find that the NEA nations will continue on the imitation, rather than innovation, path in the future. It is true that the NEAs do an excellent job of making our existing technology better and less expensive, but I wouldn’t call improving existing technology innovative.

“In sports, we have had a recent surge of East Asian superstars in baseball and a trickle in hoops. Liu Xiang also is a world champ in the 110m HURDLES now - otherwise fully-dominated by all Black men!”

Most sports will continue to be dominated by Blacks. Just because Liu Xiang is the world champion in the 110M hurdles, does not mean that the Chinese will ever be better athletes than the Blacks are. As a race, the Blacks are a gifted people, athletically. Given the huge Chinese population, it wouldn’t surprise me to see several athletic anomalies pop up out of China, but don’t expect it to be the norm.

“Most Hollywood hits are now remakes of Asian cinema - including the latest Oscar-winning "The Departed." Who's duplicating who now?”

Most Hollywood hits are not remakes of Asian cinema.

“Same goes with Asian spiritual systems. Which make Judeo-Christian systems look like children's fairytales.”

Again, see my comment regarding beauty being in the eye of the beholder. I don’t know enough to comment to about spiritual beliefs, as I am not a religious person.

“So, what have Jews invented lately?”

Wow! Isn’t that a little unfair? There are about 11 Million Ashkenazi Jews (the “smart” Jews) in the world (13 Million if you count non-Ashkenazi Jews) and there are about 1.5 Billion NEAs in the world. Comparing the West to NEA would be a fairer, although still unfair, comparison. What has the West invented lately? Well, without even trying, I can say that the two most important (from the perspective of humanity) recent inventions were invented by the West: the Internet and the Large Hadron Collider.

Let me reiterate that the NEAs are creative people – just not as creative as Whites are.

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